Veneti/Venedae
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Post from iGENEA to 22.08.2010 13:08:26
Topic is Veneti/Vendae, all Off-Topic posts will be deleted from now on.
Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from iGENEA to 13.08.2010 08:08:35
Thank you for your post Mead Hall.
There probably are some I2a lineages that reached the homeland of the slavs before the slavic expansion, even before slavs existed as an own tribe.
But the most Balkan I2a-lineages belong to a sub-cluster linked to the area south of Danube, also called "Dinaric South". These lineages are not slavic.
Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from Mead Hall to 12.08.2010 17:08:31
Slavs are R1a and originate from the Kurgan glacial refuge. I can't stand to see racist/nationalist ideology creeping into scientific or historic fact. Historic fact is that the Slavs came to the Balkans in the 5-7th century. R1a did not originate in Bosnia. It originated with the Kurgan culture.
I2a-p37.2 has it's highest concentration in Bosnia and it is dated to have a MRCA at 7500-10000 ybp. This kind of concentraion only occurs with an ancient founder event. Even if there were Slavic R1a in the Bosnian refuge it's perponderance there presently only represents a recent migration. I don't understand what the deal is with Slavs and Illyria. The Slavs already have a proud tradition and history with origins elsewhere. Leave the I2a to the Illyrians. Is it not enough that the Slavs dominated the region linguistically and culturally after the Romans already crushed it militarily?
Post from iGENEA to 18.01.2010 10:01:41
Dear Bojan,
some younger branches can be assigned to one tribe, just because they are young enough. But not everybody gets his Subclades tested and so we have to look at the genetic profile, not only at the haplogroup.
It is not secret, but i dont have numbers for these proportions. iGenea does not do any calculations like that at the moment, we just concentrate on the correct analysis of our customers profiles.
Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from bojan to 16.01.2010 16:01:23
Thanks for your answer.
The way I see it, is that a tree is made based on genetic mutations, major branches are given letters as names (as haplogroup I), their subranches got numbers as a part of name (as I2), and their subranches got another letter in the name (as in I2A). I guess, what you do is I think classify 4th order or 5th order branches as belonging to what you call "primitive tribes".
But while doing that you forget that belonging to same 3rd order branch does in fact talk of recent common origin. That is why I am very curious about I2A as possible indicator of close relations between Slavs and Illyrians...
So, can you please tell me, if it is not secret, what proportion of I2A is in your research classified as Slavic in origin and what percent of it is classified as Illyrian in origin, in various Balkan countries?
I also wonder if you can use those profiles to determine the direction of gene flow from Pre-Slavic to Pre-Illyrian, other way around, or was it same...
I am also curious about main haplogroups (3rd order branches) of ancient Macedonians in your research.
Best Regards,
Bojan
Post from iGENEA to 14.01.2010 06:01:50
Dear bojan,
no haplogroup can be linked to only one ancient tribe.
Therefore also Slavs were partially I2a, but this haplogroup did not only come to the Balkans with them.
Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from bojan to 13.01.2010 22:01:32
Actually, I would notice that high frequency and variation of haplogroup inside certain area does not give any guarantee that ethnic group carrying them was on that place since the date of creation of that haplogroup. They rather mean that the ethnic group was homogeneous without much mixing with other groups.
In a hypothetical event that majority of homogenous group move from place A to place B at some point in its history, both variation and frequency of certain haplogroup in group members is just shifted in space...
and big movements might not be so rare... e.g. 20 years ago there was significant population of Serbs on Kosovo and in Croatia, now it is not there...
What is the proof that I2A did not come on Balkan with south Slavs? It is fairly present throughout Slavic world, and is virtually absent in areas of Europe that were not inhabited by Slavic people...
What are basis for assumptions that Illyrians were largely I2A? I can see possible good indication if there is a proof that Dinaric racial features are I2a related, and that they were very present in Balkans also during early Roman empire and before...
Post from Bill to 13.01.2010 05:01:22
Bojan,
Keep trying harder and eventually you might mislead someone else.
Post from iGENEA to 21.12.2009 06:12:52
High frequency and diversity need time to develop. The higher frequency and diversity are, the more time passed.
When both frequency and diversity point to the same region it is much more easy to determine where the group originated.
You are right, different ancient tribes are sometimes mentioned at different times.
Of course, some people that where "Slavs" could have had illyrian ancestors, but the most Slavs came from a more eastern region.
Please keep in mind, that genetic tribes are not always totally identical with political tribes/nations or tribes that are mentioned by ancient historians.
Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from bojan to 20.12.2009 18:12:28
Thank you for this explanation.
I am aware that one can determine approximately how old is I2a2 (or any other haplogroup), but how on earth can we know for sure where it originated? Those are I believe assumptions based on frequency and variations, unless samples are taken from lot of arheological sites and haplogroup mix of ancient people living in area is determined...
So I wonder how many actual Illyrians were digged out of their graves to reach conclusion that I2a in Balkan is mostly due to Illyrian origin, or that I2a2 originated in west Balkan... I think it may as well be just a wrong assumption that someone sometimes published in some conference paper and that everyone have taked for granted ever since...
Btw. we also cannot talk of Slavs and Illyrians in same time cause they belong to different times...when Slavs appear in history data, Illyrians are not mentioned for long time already...that also leave space for speculating that Slavs could originate partly or largely from Illyrians..
Post from iGENEA to 20.12.2009 16:12:47
Dear bojan,
Every ancient tribe consisted of different haplogroups. The group I2a2 is about 9.000 years old and originated on the Western Balkans or at least spread from there over the Balkans and the surrounding region.
Of course it is possible, that some slavic people that arrived on the Balkans thousands of years later also where I2a2, but the whole picture supports the theory, that more Illyrians where I2a2 than Slavs.
E1b1b spread from a more southern region (Macedonia), but both groups mixed up, before we talk of Slavs and Illyrians, thats why ancient tribes do not only contain one haplogroup.
Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from bojan to 19.12.2009 23:12:44
I do think that it is quite possible that E3b1 haplogroup was in fact mostly due to Illyrians and that I2A came with south Slavs...
why?
1)all Slavs have I2a in some not so small percentage..
2) areas with higher frequency of E3b1 match the ones that were inside borders of Bysantium during Goth and Avar incursions. In fact, what we see is that areas that were part of Ostrogothic kingdom lack E3b1, but have high variation of it, while areas that were in that time part of Byzantium have high frequencies but lower variation of E3b1...
if I2A in balkan you classify as partly Slavic, partly Illyrian, does that not indicate that Slavs and Illyrians were of same origin?
Post from bojan to 19.12.2009 23:12:09
similar as in Moldavia is with E1b1 haplogroup in Kosovo Albanians... low variation, high frequency, indicating recent large population growth from small group... (see maps of frequency and variation in following publication http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/22/10/1964
(direct link to map of E haplogroup is http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/vol22/issue10/images/large/molbiolevolmsi185f04_ht.jpeg)
however, I can see in the maps much larger variations of E everywhere out of Kosovo, which can indicate that halpogroup E existed on Balkan and especially in Dalmatia for long period and that the part present in Albanians origin from small group of people moving south from that area....
I assume I2a settlers might have emptied west Balkan from people with E haplogroup...
that could have happened many thousand years ago, but also perhaps in 5th /6th century...
so my question is were Illyrians predominantly I2A or predominantly E3b1?
If they were E3b1 than Kosovo Albanians are Illyrians and I2A came to region during the fall of Roman empire (large group of people moving from one place to another will still keep variation of its haplogroups, so it is quite possible that I2A came to Balkans with Serbs and Croats)
If however I2A is dominantly Illyrian, than Serbs and Croats assimilated a lot of previous inhabitants...and E3b1 haplogroup is remain of some settlers predating Illyrians
Post from bojan to 19.12.2009 21:12:04
1. there is no evidence about any cultural and linguistical link between Albanian and Illyrian. So far, there are only assumptions and wishful thinking.
2. If name "Slavs" does appear in history in 5th of 6th century, it doesnot mean that same people did not live there all along under other names. Perhaps Dacian, Illyrian, Macedonian, Veneti, Thracian could be those names in earlier times, and Veneade and Sarmatian somewhat later. If you can't understand how that with naming works try to think how many nations would you think exist in ex-Yugoslavia 30 years ago, and how many nations do you think now exist there?
3. higher frequency of haplogroup does not mean that people who carry that haplogroup live on that place for long time. Better marker of long term history is looking at variation. I2A in Moldavia being excellent example (high frequency, low variation => recent settlement)
Post from Jordan to 17.12.2009 07:12:16
Dear Roman,
Thank you for clrification. Hope somebody will update Wikipedia with a corect map.
Cheers!
Post from iGENEA to 17.12.2009 06:12:08
Dear Jordan,
The "P37.2" (I2a) over this area in Germany at this map is misleading.
This is the map for I2a2 (also it says I2):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HaplogroupI2.png
Here are some older maps with partially wrong nomenclature:
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/936/ychromosomennewpx6.jpg
I1b at that map is I2a2 and I1b2 is I2a1 (Sardinia).
As you can see, both subgroups of I2a are not very common in Germany.
Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from Jordan to 17.12.2009 04:12:50
Hi Eastra,
Thank you for info about Moldova, which perfectly explains high percentage of M423 there.
Re map (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Haplogroup_I.png), I know it’s entire group I. However, note P37.2+ over pretty dark area in Germany. P37.2 is the marker for I2a+ (not I2b or I1).
Cheers!
Post from eastara to 17.12.2009 03:12:51
You are looking at the wrong map, it is for the whole I haplogroup. Germany has the highest concentration of I2b and some I1.
The right map for I2a is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HaplogroupI2.png
I was trying to explain the dark spot around Moldova is caused by recent immigration and people should not look for the origins of I2a there.
Post from Jordan to 16.12.2009 19:12:32
Dear Roman,
Thank you for response.
The reason for my question about P37.2 in Germany is a map at Wikipedia: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Haplogroup_I.png
It looks more than 2% to me?
Post from iGENEA to 16.12.2009 10:12:05
Dear Jordan,
i am not an expert in moldavian history, so i dont know which histroical eventy might have created the higher frequency there.
But the high frequency of I2a2 in the western Balkans indicates, that this group originated there or that a small population with a high percentage of I2a2 populated the area after the last glacial maximum. Please keep in mind that the southern Slavs descend not only from slavic people but also from Illyrians and other tribes of that region that had a big percentage of I2a2.
Unfortunatly i dont have more detailed informations about P37.2 in Germany, but the percentage is small, only about 2 % i think. I am sure this contains both subgroups, I2a1 (M26) and I2a2 (M423).
Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from eastara to 15.12.2009 11:12:54
The majority of the current population of Moldova is not older than 300 years. Everybody who knows Balkan history should be aware Crimean Tartars(Nogays) lived there until 17-18 century, later completely displaced by immigrants from the Balkans, Ukraine and Russia. First came Vlachs, then Bulgarians and Gagauz, and finaly Ukranians and Russians. Where are the Tartars - as Turks in Bulgaria and Turkey and further interned by Russian governments in the interior of the country.
So there is a very easy exlanation about Moldovan I2a - it is from the Balkans and West Ukraine, not indigenous.
There are recent theories I2a2 Dinaric originated around the Carpathian mountains as I2a2 Dinaric North is very widely distributed around Eastern Europe, of course splilling out in Germany and further west.
Dinaric South, which has the highest concentration in former Yugoslavia could be only a more recent branch of I2a2.
Post from Jordan to 15.12.2009 10:12:03
Dear Roman,
We think that I2a (P37.2) emerged in the Balkans some 15,000 years ago, among population that migrated there during the latest ice age. After that, those people expanded to the North and East, repopulating the Europe.
I’m a little bit confused about the subgroups. I2a2 (M423) is the most frequent in Western Balkans (Dalmatia, Herzegovina) but also has a strong presence in Moldova. Some other subgroups are present among Slavic people in Eastern and Central Europe.
Question: how to explain high frequency of I2a2 among South Slavs? Is it possible that during the migration of Slavs (mostly R1a) they were pushed back to Balkans? Or I2a2 developed among population that haven’t left Balkans, except the small group that moved to the today’s Moldavia?
I noticed that there is some presence of P37.2 in Germany, but without indication of any subgroup. Is it because the testing was not detailed enough to determine the subgroups, or it’s P37.2 that doesn’t show signs of other mutations? Do you have some additional info about that?
Cheers!
Post from Mirza Husovic to 08.11.2009 18:11:14
Dear Roman, the mutations occur because of enviroment and food....kind regards..
Post from iGENEA to 08.11.2009 11:11:49
Dear Mirza,
Of course, the pure male line is also pure concerning genes - it is always the same Y-Chromosome that only changes by mutation. but not by intermixture.
That is what makes this whole thing working and interessting.
Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from Mirza Husovic to 07.11.2009 22:11:52
Dear Roman,
My mother's father is E3b and we know that in the 17th century an Arab mercenary fought for the Ottoman Empire and settled down in Herzegovina. But I am interested only in the paternal line, since thats what matters biblically and Islamic law wise. So if I am 99.99% I2a paternally, than in that sense I have no mixture paternally, otherwise I'd be an R1b or N etc. Meaning from father to son the I2a was passed through generations.
Kind regards..
Post from iGENEA to 07.11.2009 17:11:01
Dear Mirza,
Yes, we should try to bring it all together, but its clear that it will take some time. As there is no consensus among historians like among genetic scientists in some questions it is even more difficult to get a consensus among scientist of different areas. Apart from this a consensus does not have to be the truth.
The ethnicities you mentioned have a bigger amount of I2a than others, that is correct, but that does not really separate them from R1- or other Europeans, because these big general Haplogroups mixed up long time ago.
If somebody would not only get his pure male line tested but also the other male lines of his ancestry (mothers father for example) it is very probable that it is a mixture of all the haplogroups that are common in the area his ancestors are from.
Of course every male person only belongs to one haplogroup, the one that his Y-Chromosome belongs to.
But we can not say that R1b-people haven't anything to do with I2a. Maybe it was that way some time in history, but that was thousands of years ago.
Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from Mirza Husovic to 07.11.2009 15:11:23
Dear Roman,
Thank you Roman for your reply. Although I believe it is time to correlate between history(migrations),anthropology and genetics so we can closer to a correct outcome rather than historical theories of a few from the late 19th century.
The Western European spoke of Slavic hordes coming from the east, yet both east and west Europe are cousins, meaning R1a and R1b. I think that they should stop calling Bosniaks,Herzegovininas and Dalmatians Slavs since I2a is distant from R1a(apperantly "Slavic), just as the distance between the earth and the sun.Cannot we use genetic evidence to prove historical theories as incorrect?
Best Regards...
Post from iGENEA to 07.11.2009 15:11:05
Dear Mirza,
1. language
I am not an expert on this, but as far as i know most linguists say that the Illyrian language was influenced by Latin and that this mixture was the base for the development of the Albanian language which of course also was influenced by Greek and maybe also other languages.
I also read there is a lack of hard evidence but yet they come to this conclusion.
Anyway it is neither a romance nor a slavic language and it is also different from the Thracian language which seems to make the illyrian origin very probable.
That does not mean, that the Albanian language of today and the ancient Ilyrian language have much in common.
That is why i said, the Albanian language can be traced back to the Illyrian language. I can not estimate to which extent the original Illyrian got influenced and changed by the other languages that contributet to the Albanian language.
2. Genetics
I am sorry, i did mix up the numbers and iGenea removed the statistics from the website.
You are correct, Bosnians were the one with the highest percentage Illyrian (40%) in the last statistic.
In Albania the rate was at least 30%, less than in Bosnia but not a small number.
I guess you mean the haplogroup E1b1b when you talk of african genes. It is correct, that the percentage of this haplogroup is higher in Albania than in other countries from the Balkans. But it already saw data with 22% for Albania and 24% for Serbia but that probably was due to Kosovo Albanians.
By the way, Greece has a similar amount of E1b1b.
Citation:
"The origin of the Albanians was and still is a disputed topic.
Most scientists agree that they mainly are Illyrian and/or Thracian and/or Dacian but not decendants from immigrants that arrived at the balkans later."
This did not refer to genetics but to statements of historians.
Of course there seems to be a dissent between these statements and the "30% Illyrian". But in the same statistic we also got 18% Thracians, so its not totally incorrect what historians suggested. The other half was slavic, phoenician (they probably brought a big amount E1b1b) and hellenic.
Still it is not that easy to bring genetics and history together. Historians do not differ between tribes that can be genetically identified, they differ between tribes that get mentioned in antic sources, which often are political unities or between different cultures that can be separated in archeology.
This will never totally fit genetics because tribes always did mix up, people got integrated in other tribes and can not be differentiated by their cultural heritage although they differ in genetics.
I hope i could answer your questions but dont hestitate to ask if anything is not clear yet (actually, somethings just can not be totally clearified at this time).
Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from Mirza Husovic to 07.11.2009 03:11:39
Dear Roman,
Following are quotes from iGENEA,
\"Maybe Albanians descend from Illyrians to a bigger extent than others,\"
also \
"Bosnians 40% Illyrian\"..
\"Concerning the Albanians it can be said, that their language can be traced back to the illyrian language.\" No historical evidence regarding that what so ever, Balkan history is my specialty and there is no hard evidence.
Than in another post..\"The Problem is, that we do not yet know much enough about this language.\"..Than how can you say Albanian is traced back to Illyrian if you don\'t know enough about this language?
Also \"The origin of the Albanians was and still is a disputed topic.
Most scientists agree that they mainly are Illyrian and/or Thracian and/or Dacian but not decendants from immigrants that arrived at the balkans later.\" Your own data shows Bosnians to be more Illyrian than any other group, especially Albanians. Yet they have more African genes than anyone on the Balkans...
Also..\"Maybe Albanians descend from Illyrians to a bigger extent than others,\" Yet in your results Bosnians 40% Ilyrians the highest amount?
Could you please clarify Mr Roman,
Thank you..
Kind Regards
Post from Marko to 06.11.2009 19:11:45
Thank you for the answer.
Kind regards
Post from iGENEA to 06.11.2009 19:11:17
Dear Marko,
I placed the answer in the new thread you opened.
Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from Marko to 06.11.2009 17:11:10
Following mutations are marked as positive at my Subclade result:
P37.2
M438
M423
M258
L69=T
Can i definitely say that my haplogroup belongs to haplogroup I2a2(M423)(regarding to my positive all 4 mutations) or not (?), even without consider meaning of L69 mutation?
Post from iGENEA to 06.11.2009 15:11:51
Dear Marko,
Ok, thank you, i did not know that FTDNA already included this SNP because the haplotree has not yet been updated.
You are still part of I2a, I2a2b is a subgroup of this Haplogroup.
It was recently discovered and we do not yet know much about it. But we know the frequency and distributin of I2a2 (which I2a2b belongs to).
Here you can see a map of I2a2 (it says I2 but its I2a2):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/HaplogroupI2.png
As you said you come from Slovenia, your result suggests, that your male ancestral line lived in that area for a long time. I2a2 is 5.200 to 12.400 years old, a long periode but we do not know that exactly at this time.
As the diversity of I2a2 is very high on the western Balkans it is very probable that it originated there.
This is the FTDNA project group for your haplogroup:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx
Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from Marko to 06.11.2009 13:11:57
It's not a mistake: I2a2b (L69=T+)
Post from iGENEA to 04.11.2009 19:11:25
Dear Marko,
are you sure it is "I2a2b" and not I2a2a? I2a2b is a very new haplogroup which has not yet been added to the FTDNA haplotree.
Please look that up again at your result, if it really says I2a2b it could be a mistake.
Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from Marko to 03.11.2009 13:11:28
Hello!
I am from Slovenia(also have relatives in Croatia) my STR tests shows that my haplogroup is I2a, but than after the Backbone SNP and Subclade tests my new haplogroup is I2a2b (?)
I didnt find discription of this haplogroup?
Post from Speak Illyrian to 18.09.2009 11:09:06
Well all Slavs came here and none of them are autochton. They are all losers from Iran that they couldn't find place to settle until they met Illyrians and toughed the Agriculture and than they finally achieved to settle. But Barbarians remains always Barbarians, and they were never thankful to the Illyrians. Instead of that they killed Illryrians, took they land and even mad that hug of terror that most of illyrians to save their life changed their Language in Slavic in order to stay alive. This was the terible luck of Croatians, Montenegro's, Slovenians (which were also under German tribes attack) and Bosnians but also many illyrians were assimilated into Serbs. The only part where the illyrians achieved to continue their traditions were the territory of Today Albania, Eastern Macedonia, Southern Kosovo, and maybe also Western Greece. But it only a dialect of Illyrian language.
Post from someone to 01.09.2009 13:09:28
Arrival of slavs isn't proven! Serbs croats and bosnians are element between Sclavenic culture and language (Poles, Czechs, Slovenes, Slovaks) and between Antish language and culture (Russians, ukrainians, belarussians). Macedonians are something wierd, language gramatic is west slavic with big serbian infulence. Slovenes are more and more believed to be west slavs, culture is deffinetly west slavic, while official language is south slavic, but sleng and dialects are again west slavic. Serbo-croatian nations are culturaly east slavic, while languages are element between slovene and ukrainian. It is known that new slavs came to balkan where older slavs were already living. Point of what i'm trying to tell you, is that not all slavs are autochton.
Post from Milan to 22.05.2009 01:05:38
I read these posts and i cannot believe how many historical stereotips have people who pretend to solve mysteries about nations origins...First of all, there is only one source for Slavs migration in 6 century, which all german historyography school believers based their claims,and it\'s Constantin Porfirogenit\'s „De administrando imperio“. Well known fact is that Byzantine emperor wasn\'t historian, an this work is full of completely fake facts, some events are shaken for 200 years earlier or later...You are right, no one mentioned Slavs before 5c. But almost all of them mentioned Serbs!Tacit, Ptolomej, Plinije,Apijan,Jordanes,Strabon, etc...This guy Bojan say nothing about that!Over 200 ancient authors wrote about Serbs...Safarik (he is,for me,the key figure of slavistic science,i respect him a lot, and consider his \"Origin of the Slavs according to Lorenz Surowiecki\" as masterpiece and best documented work about origin of Slavs) thought that all Slavs called by one name in their ancient lands, as Serbs. Serbi were comon name for all Slavs acording to Safarik, Dobrovski, Surowiecki, Jan Kollar, and many others..There are hundreds of very serious historians,etnologians and scientists who would laugh on your \"well known fact about Slavs migrations\"...Be careful with constructions like these,and if you want to teach people who are Slavs, read something about their history and etnogenesis from people like Safarik,Dobrovski, Kolar, Vuk Karadzic, Mikloscic,Tomo Maretic,Mavro Orbini,Siprijan Rober,Francisko Maria Apendini,Stjuard Pigot,Gordon Child,Ami Bue,etc...
Post from iGENEA to 24.12.2008 15:12:55
Caution! It is proved that linguistic analyses don't reflect the origin of a tribe. A folk can have a common language and although different genetic roots. Look examples like albanians, Romanians, Italians and Spaniards, they have a linguistic common origin but nothing genetics.
Inma Pazos
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from Ender_III to 22.12.2008 23:12:27
All those ancient sources do not talk about arrival of Slavs, but they mention them. Veneti, Ilyrs, Thrace, Macedonians, they were all ancient Slavs. We were taught only about Old Slavs from 9th century onwards, but ancient Slavs preceeded them few thousand years. How about new evidence which shows that ancient Macedonians spoke a Pre-Slavic language: http://rosetta-stone.etf.ukim.edu.mk/index.php?q=en
Post from iGENEA to 25.11.2008 13:11:29
Tacitus, von Tours, for example.
Inma Pazos
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from Goce of Macedonia to 25.11.2008 04:11:44
Please if You ]'ll be so kind can You tell me this sources from Rome, "greece", Syria and Germany about the so called Slav arrival? Thank You.
Post from iGENEA to 07.11.2008 15:11:19
Please, be friendly!
I have never said, the Slavs exist since the 5th. century, but their ARRIVAL in EUROPE ist PROOVED at the 5th century. You will find this information in each serious history book. I am not talking about the real origins of Slavs, this one is not sure, but their ARRIVAl is prooved. We have romans, greek, syrians and germanic sources with the same epoque.
Inma Pazos
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from Bojan to 06.11.2008 22:11:15
I am sorry, but you do not have a clue about history. Even Germanic schools that tends to push Slavs out of Europe have a hypothesis that Slavs origin from soemwhere in Ukraine. You put them even further away.
There is no proof in history that Slavs came from central Asia in 5th century. Slavs are just not mentioned before 5th century anywhere in the world, which doesnot mean they were not mentioned under other names. You see, it is impossible in history to create ethnicum pretty monolith in genetics and language covering half Europe out of nothing... So, they were known under other names. Looking at geographics and some historic sources largest tribe among those various names are Venedae, perhaps with significant admixture of Sarmatians.
If you want to apply genetic research to study origin of nations, you should first learn some history and learn to distinguish what is hypothesis and what is known in history. Slavs comming from central Asia is not even anyone's hypothesis. This is first time I hear such idea. Albanian peasants could claim this cause they learn mostly falsificated history created to inspire their nationalism, but noone else with proper education could claim such a thing.
Post from iGENEA to 06.11.2008 17:11:07
Unfortunately I cannot answer this question, given that relationsships between tribes haven't been analysed yet. But A genetic relationsship between illyrians and slavs is not probably. Illyrians were the first habitants of balcan regions, slavs came from Central asia to Europa about the 5th century, and a common origin is not known.
Inma Pazos
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from Bojan to 06.11.2008 13:11:20
Some haplogroup can be mark of movement of certain tribe. This is the case because people inside same haplogroup are more related and more likely to move together. More detailed haplogroup tree of course give more precise picture of ethnogenesis of different tribes and nations. I2a present in genetics of Germanic, Slavic and Illyrian does tell one of partly common origin of the three populations earlier in history. I made hypothesis that origin of spread of I2A among Germanic and Slavic could be illyrian Veneti tribe moving northwards and mixing with other tribes contributing to ethnogenesis of Slavs and Germans.
Geographic distribution of haplogroup groups and subgroups studied in comparison with history sources can give you idea of etnogenesis of different nations. Afterall, that is precisely what you do by stating that this or that tribe is partly hellenic or illyrian or whatever.
Post from Bojan to 06.11.2008 13:11:08
if you read carefully, I did not say that haplogroup is same as tribe. I wondered whether there is genetic connection between Illyrians that existed earlier in history and Slavs that appeared later and somewhat more on north.
I2a haplogroup existing in significant numbers in both of them does indicate common origin in earlier history. Question is whether Slavs partly origin from proto-Illyric or pre-Illyric Balkan population that perhaps did move northwards at some point in history.
Kind Regards,
Bojan
Post from iGENEA to 06.11.2008 11:11:20
Again, it is very important to DIFFER betweenn Haplogroup and Primitive Tribe. We have persons with germanic tribes, who belong to I2a and also persons with illyrian or slavian origins from the same haplogroup. Both groups represent different times and a causal conclusion is impossible.
So, you cannot say: I am I2a, so I am an Illyrian. Of course, the majority of I2a have illyrian or slav roots, but the connection of haplogroup et tribe is not correct.
Inma Pazos
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from Bojan to 06.11.2008 00:11:46
I also noticed very interesting linguistical link between Veneti/wind/Wends/Serbs/Croats/Russian in ancient Greece mytology
Wends/Winds can be related to english word winds
Venti is italian name for wind gods that are in Greace named Anemoi.
West wind god is Zephyrus, east wind god is Eurus. Son of Zephyrus is Carpus. Zaphyrus is born in cave in Thrace.
Isn't there surprising linguistic similarity as Zephyrus/Serb, Carpus/Croat(Hrvat) and Eurus (Russian), and even more there is geographical link of Serb on west, Russian on east, and ethnological with Croats being most common to Serbs and perhaps derived from them at some point in time?
It is very common place in Greek mythology to relate gods with people derived from them...
So, I am very curious if there is genetical link connecting ancient Veneti with Vendae and Slavs...
perhaps Vandals (as people with tribal name derived from same root) known as east germanic tribe are in fact also west Slavic, that is somewhere in between Slavic and Germanic...
Vandals could be explanation for Sardinian I2 haplogroup, because Sardinia was one of main basis in their kingdom after fall of west roman empire...
Post from Bojan to 05.11.2008 23:11:00
You mentioned that I2a on Balkan is of different origin (Illyrian, Slavic, Germanic). In addition, it is often considered that I2a is on Balkan for more then 10000 of years.
Is it possible to conclude that Slavic and Germanic I2A in fact origins from Balkan?
I suggest trying to link it with Illyrian tribe Veneti (that was situated on north of Balkan and Italy) and to test an assumption that Venedae tribes (see http://www.euratlas.com/history_europe/europe_map_0001.html) in fact origin from Balkan Veneti expanding northwards. Note that it is known that there were also Vistula Veneti living on teritory of Poland and that Venedae existed on teritories where Slavs do nowadays, and that Germanic people seems to use use names like Wendish for Slavic in general and in particular for Sorbs.
In my opinion expansion of Veneti, under name Venedi could very well explain existance of I2a gen in most Slavic countries.
Looking at history maps, another possibility is that I haplogroup (all subgroups) could be Sarmatian influence. Sarmatians are iranic tribe and if they are origin of european haplogroup I, that could explain aryanic traditions of Germanic tribes. Perhaps, 10000 or more years ago they split in two groups one going southwest and other northwest resulting in I1 and I2 haplogroups.
Do you perhaps have some archealogical data on Sarmatians and Venedae? I suspect that one of those tribes was dominant carrier of R1a haplogroup and other of I2a but I cannot figure it out without genetic data.
Kind Regards and
thanks in advance,
Bojan