Genetic Difference between Serbs and Croats
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Beitrag von iGENEA am 01.09.2010 08:09:44
Dear I2a2 and Avatar,
with a DNA-genealogy test we can determine among which tribe the pure male and pure female ancestral lineage lived in the ancient times. This includes all people that lived among these tribes, which is why profiles of one tribe can be very different.
This is based not only on haplogroup but also on the personal profile.
Of course this should not change or determine the identity of people living today.
Roman C. Scholz
Beitrag von Avatar am 26.08.2010 16:08:18
This is the best post on the entire igenea.com - So true! People just cant understand that it doesen't exist "Illyrian blood" or "Celtic blood" - that is linguistic terms - everyone who speeks a Cetic language, belongs to the nation which is constructed by Celts, and country also constructed by Celts - than he is a Celt, even if hes farfather was from Scnadinavia, Balticum or the Balkans. What someones haplogroup is, doesen't makes him something else.
Beitrag von I2a2 am 25.08.2010 16:08:08
Stop say Illyrian,Slavic,Germanic,Finnugric,Celtic etc. haplogroup!!!This is a cultural-lingvistic-political category.Haplogroup are biological not spiritual category.
Beitrag von croat am 17.02.2010 12:02:42
Beitrag von bojan am 31.12.2009 16:12:33
Here is my guess of why iGenea results are somewhat confusing:
I2a 38 % / 34 %
E1b1b 20 % / 10 %
R1a 19 % / 32 %
R1b 14 % / 18 %
J2 9 % / 6 %
Slav 30% /20%
Illyrian 21% / 34%
Teuton 18% / 12%
Celtic 14% / 18%
Phoenician 9% / 8%
Hellenic People 6% / 8%
Vikings 2% / 0%
First of all Celtic influence is R1b and is similar in both...
ancient Greeks are mostly J2 and their influence is also clear...
Phoenicans (though I think some other name would be more proper, since real Phoenicians were not that influential in this area and likely dominantly J1 and not E1b1b) are counted as E1b1b, but not all E1b1b is counted as Phoenician.
Croats have more R1a, Serbs more E1b1b and slightly more I2a...
First about E1b. Not all, and not first, inhabitants of ex-Yu were Illyrians. E1b1b is originating from inhabitants of Balkan that during neolithic time came from middle East via Turkey and spread towards north of Europe using Vardar-Morava-Danube valley... later Illyrians came...in time of Illyrians, due to assimilating more E1b1b people, eastern Illyrians were probably having more E1b1b than western because they assimilated more previous inhabitants...
Also it is questionable whether Illyrians were inhabiting Serbia proper, since based on historical data we are more liklely to conclude that they mainly inhabeted Bosnia and Croatia. So, Serbs didnot really assimilate as much Illyrians as Croats, they assimilated other previous inhabitants.
On other hand, note that all Slavic nations do besides R1A have also strong I2A component...I think Illyrians were branch of Slavic or close to Slavic, it could be that I2A probably spread in Slavic countries due to Illyrians (under name Veneti) moving northwards, becoming constitutive element of Slavic nations, and giving them name Venedae (used for them before they became known as Slavs)... language spoken nowadays by Serbs and Croats I believe is mostly Illyrian dialect of Slavic. R1A component in Slavic could be due to Iranian component in Slavs. Long time ago, R1A and I2a blended into Slavic.
In Serbs and Croats of today, I2A come largely from different sources. Proto-Croats came on Balkan probably as dominantly R1a and there acquired I2A from Illyrians, while proto-Serbs came as more I2a then R1A, and obtained from assimilated people more E1b1b..
So, I2A is in Croats largely counted as Illyrian, while in Serbs big chunk of it is counted much more as Slavic.
Note 2% of Viking genetics in Serbs, and larger Teuton percentage. That is due to Serbs prior to Balkan living in closer proximity to Germanic and Viking tribes. In that part of Slavic world I2A was probably stronger than in ones from which Croats came.
E.g. south Poland and west Czech republic have somewhat higher I2A. Surprisingly, Sorbs are mostly R1a. This can be explained with Serb or Croat being names used among different Slavic tribes not related to their origin, but to some other meaning of the word... e.g. due to names of small Sarmatian elites that ruled them...btw. national names of Serbs and Croats probably come from same source since Srb/Hrv roots of the words are interchangeable in different languages...
Beitrag von iGENEA am 31.12.2009 13:12:31
i can not tell you the number of customers from different countries, we have no data about that.
It is not possible to determinate upon face look which tribe the lineages belong, that we research (only pure male/female ancestral lineage).
Roman C. Scholz
Beitrag von Vladimir am 30.12.2009 21:12:55
Hello to everyone. Sorry for my bad English.
On how many people you take you example when you test space of former SRJ Yugoslavia. I am Serb in nationality. I do not hide that I wish to be more Slavic. And can you upon face look determinate wich tribe is dominate. For example many Russian have some comon face. Thank you and sorry for my bad English.
Beitrag von iGENEA am 11.11.2009 07:11:45
Croats and Serbs came across the river Danube. I dont see a close connection between the slavic movement and the Arab expansion in Iran and surrounding regions. These events just took place to far from each other.
At that time many conquests and migrations took place, but i dont think that Serbs and Croats came all the way long from Iran.
The haplogroup R1a is a wide spread group, but, to simplify it, most scientist think it is rather probable that the eastern R1a (like in Bactria) and the western R1s share a place of origin somewhere in the middle, not that all the western R1a came from the eastern R1a-Region.
The easiest way not to get confused is not to mix up haplogroups and antic tribes.
But i get what you mean, there seems to be "too much" Phoenicians, Helens and Illyrians in Croatia or "too less" E1b1b1. And the other way round for Serbia.
Most of E1b1b1 is not Illyrian, it its Phoenician and Hellenic. What i said is, that the amount of E1b1b1 that is NOT Phoenician and Hellenic probably is illyrian, rather then beeing celtic, slavic or teutonic.
I mentioned the possibility that the statistics just dont fit together because they come from different sources. If we would look at all the different sources together the divergence probably would be reduced.
But i rather supspect that there is a regional divergence within the peoples. That means that there could have been much more E1b1b1 among some illyric tribes than among some others.
As you know two people can belong to the same tribe while having totally different haplogroups. Maybe in Serbia more E1b1b1 was integrated into pre-illyrian or slavic tribes.
There are different explanations, but we can not totally clearify that by now, we just can observe the amounts of haplogroups and tribes, update these informations and then try to find explanations but for this purpose
more research has to be done.
Roman C. Scholz
Beitrag von Mirza Husovic am 11.11.2009 05:11:46
One thing is for certian, the Sorbs have one of the highest rates of R1a in Europe, I think around 88 percent.
Beitrag von ? am 11.11.2009 02:11:54
Umm yeah but look Croats have more of the potenital eb3 people so to speak so Phoenicians,Illyrians, and hellenic as for Croats that number is 50%of their antic peoples while for Serbia that number is 36%. now i realize that the antic celts,slavs, vikings, teutons etc.. the odd one might of had eb3 but look at these countries
Sweden- viking dominante virtually no eb
Scotland- celt dominate again virtually no eb
Russia- Slav dominate again virtually no eb
Germany- I guess teuton dominate? and again virtually no eb3
so only people left are hellenics, phoenicians, and illyrians
Greeks- hellenics have high amounts of eb
Phoenicians were a semetic people so J would be their dominate haplogroup?
Illyrians- i would guess would be I2a and eb3 as where their descenadants are found on the balkans is also a large amount of eb3 which Croats lack. thats where my confusion is coming from as if these antic peopels are true wouldnt there be a much more drastic change from Croats being near 90% (R1a, I2a, and R1b) to Serbs being only less than 60%. Even you say most eb3 is illyrian you guess but again Croats shouldnt they have a higher amount as 34% is illyrian and for Serbia its 21%? as eb3 is found in very small percent amoung Croatians. for Serbs dominate group is Slav 30% yet R1a is amoung lowest value in Europe. also who carried haplogroup T? You say it might change to soem extent but these differences are quite significant or large. as it would make more sense if the antic peoples of Serbia and Croatia were the opposite acccording to haplogroups or vice versa.
P.S. is there any genetic linkage between Serbs and Sorbs? as some historical sources claim that Serbs and Sorbs until 6th century were one people
Beitrag von Mirza Husovic am 10.11.2009 21:11:43
We can calculate the exact coming of the Serbs and Croats during the Arab
expansions into the Caucuses and Iran during the rule of Caliph Umar 634-644.
Round about the same time the Serbo-Croats appear in the North-Eastern border
of the Byzantine empire, Carpathian mountains, the Byzantine Emperor at that
time allows the Serbo-Croats to settle in the Balkans as long as they help the
emperor in expelling the Arabs from Dalmatia, and southern Europe, Arab-Byzantine wars.
(Constantine Porphyrogenitus: De administrando imperio 948)
Both the term Serb has an origin in Arabic meaning family,flock,people etc. Croat/Hrvat in Arabic Hurath which means farmers. These people adopted the "South-Slavic" also known
by the 19th century European scholars as Illyrian,language as their tongue. We can see a very strong R1a chain all the way from Iran/Bactria to todays Servia and Croatia.
Can it be proposed that the R1a influx that occurred in the 7th or 8th centuries was because of Arab expansions and their expulsion of these people from their original homeland?
Beitrag von iGENEA am 10.11.2009 07:11:39
Statistics differ. I have seen data that shows a bigger amount of I2a, R1a and R1b for Serbia (about 70%) and less E1b1b1. But let us just take the data of eupedia for true:
The fact, that the amount of E1b1b1 (E3b is the old name) is bigger than the amount of Phoenicians and Hellenic people (and other tribes from the Near East that are not namend because of their small number) shows, that it was not only the ancient tribes who brought a haplogroup into an area they moved in.
That means, at least some E1b1b1 had to be there before any movements of ancient tribes we know. Probably some Illyrians also had E1b1b1, maybe also a small part of the celtic, slavic, teuton or viking people could theoretically have had E1b1b1, but i guess most non-near-eastern E1b1b1 is Illyrian.
But keep in mind that statistics can change at least to some extent. There could be less E1b1b1 and more Phoenicians for example which would reduce the divergence.
Roman C. Scholz
Beitrag von ? am 10.11.2009 01:11:23
Ok so some genetic tests say that Serbs have 24% eb3 and a sizeable percent of other middle eastern haplogroups. while croats have like 6% also only 57% of Serbs belong to the typical Euro haplogroups (I, R1a, R1b) while 88% of Croats fall under these. source:http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml However if we look at antic people for Serbia and Croatia they are not that different.
Hellenic People 6%
Illyrian People 34%
Hellenic People 8%
So if we look at it neither the Serbs nor the Croats have a significant number of middle eastern antic people only the phoenicians. yet 43% of Serbs have middle or near eastern dna which antic peoples brought this to Serbia? As if the phoenicians were the carriers of haplogroup J who brought eb3 T etc.. as neither celtic, slavic,teuton or viking dominate countries dont have this large amount of middle east dna.