Greeks Relatedness to sub-Saharan/Ethiopian people
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Post from Jim to 23.06.2011 23:06:50
Please to the north neighbours. Trying to prove that Hellenes came from Sahara regions and other stuff, doesn't automatically makes you Macedonians. So leave your country's nationalistic beliefs aside. You can't rewrite history. The ancient ruins say everything and i don't see a different language than Greek in Macedonian ruins.
Post from Darko to 02.09.2010 17:09:39
The claim that "hellenes" were anything else than a SUPPOSED small tribe in the ancient world was debunked long ago! As we can see they're only PRODUCTS OF GENEALOGICAL SPECULATION:
All this was well known to Thucydides:
"For it appears that Hellas never did anything in common before the Trojan war. And it seems to me that Hellas as a whole did not yet bear this name then, and the name 'Hellenes' did not exist at all before the time of Hellen, the son of Deukalion...
It is not only Hellen himself who appears to be a post-factum GENEALOGICAL CONSTRUCT WITH NO BACKGROUND in the Heroic Age. The same would also be true of the other members of the initial group, namely, Hellen's sons Aiolos, Doros and Xouthos' sons Ion and Achaios. All of them, with the possible exception of Xouthos, are obviously hardly more than PRODUCTS OF GENEALOGICAL SPECULATION meant to account for historic divisions among the Greeks of later period."
('Greeks and pre-Greeks: Aegean prehistory and Greek heroic tradition', AvMargalit Finkelberg)
http://books.google.se/books?id=H-q2UQZ5XzAC&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=dalangkha&source=bl&ots=KP6sUFlzQS&sig=aC6subW63qGX13pUR4w2z3Vcxdc&hl=sv&ei=IQGvS-TDMYna-QayodW7Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=dalangkha&f=false
Post from iGENEA to 01.09.2010 08:09:26
As far as i know the nomination "Hellenes" was also used in ancient times for all tribes of greek language.
The term Danai was also used, just like Acheans.
All these names have originally been the names of only one ancient greek tribe, we choose "Hellenes" because it is the best know term.
Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from Darko to 30.08.2010 05:08:28
Dear Roman and iGENEA
In your post from iGENEA to 18.07.2010 you "just called" the 'ancient greex' - "hellenes" (which is in fact a nomination introduced around 1830 by the German historian Gustav Droysen), even though we know from Homer and other sources that the "hellenes" were probably just one of the many tribes on Peloponese and above all doesn't reflects the reality of todays modern Greece.
Why iGENEA doesn't use the real and more apropriate name for these tribes - Danai (or Danaans, Dănăoi) - as the "greek" tribes were originaly called in the ancient times ?
Best regards
Darko
Post from istor to 30.07.2010 14:07:56
No Kiril, you did and do that.
You are the ones who relate race with ethnicity, despite igenea told you the obvious: "ethnicity is not determined by DNA".
So, lets make it clear: If you confess that "blood and dna are not related to ethnicity, at least within a race" then I might be involved to any serious talking about dna research with you.
Now, read what Krste Misirkov wrote to you in up corner of the page: http://www.macedonia.co.uk/client/index1.aspx?page=14
Post from Kiril to 30.07.2010 03:07:31
Istor you have diverged from the genetics issues to pure politics, racism and vulgarity.
But, having said that I love your style and completely agree with your humourous approach to the real issue here, the Greece-Macedonia name issue. Your style of humour is unique, we must all be able to laugh at ourselves and you do that wonderfully on a personal level and for your nation as a whole, bravo!
But, for those out there that may believe some of the fantasy you write I will post an informative reply soon.
Post from istor to 29.07.2010 12:07:36
There is no ethnic blood, but there is ethnic language:
"For a nation to preserve its own national language and to protect it as something sacred means that it remains loyal to the spirit of its ancestors and respectful for what they had created."
Krste Misirkov, On the Macedonian Affairs, 1903
http://www.macedonia.co.uk/client/index1.aspx?page=14
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_curse_tablet
Don't be afraid or ashamed of truth. The fact that Tito raped your ancestor's minds is not your fault! The fact that you rape your children's minds IS your fault, entirely.
Post from Kiril to 29.07.2010 00:07:45
Oh, istor that's very funny, it's good to see a least one of you Hellenic boys has a sense of humour! For a moment there I thought you may have been serious, but then quickly realised that no one could be that backward and that your writing is pure humour.
If you have more material please keep posting we all need to laugh, thanks again!
By the way Collins English Dictionary states ethnic = cultural, folk, indigenous, national, racial, traditional.
Post from istor to 27.07.2010 15:07:58
blood and dna are not related to ethnicity at least within a race.
Since Issocrates' times humanity (Greeks) know that ethnicity is a matter of education taken in house or neighborhood or school.
In fact, if I adopt Kiril's children I 'll make them proud Macedonians like me and not SlavoSkopians like him.
In fact, this is the main reason that Tito could "educate" Bulgarians of FYROM and make them "Macedonians" after transforming them into zombies.
There is no "Macedonian" blood. But there are Macedonian names: Alexandros, Philippos, Kleitos, Parmenion, Olympias, Vereniki, Thessaloniki, ..... all Greek.
Post from Kiril to 26.07.2010 08:07:28
Here is some more light reading for you Hellenic boys and please note ethnicity is not only about language, it is also about the "Land of Origin" and of course "ANCESTRY"!
Anyway please read another little French/Belgium study below;
Genetic insight into an ancient population from Anatolia: first data from the archaeological site of Sagalassos
Claudio Ottoni1,3, Nancy Vanderheyden1, François-Xavier Ricaut3,4, Ronny Decorte1,2, Marc Waelkens5
1Laboratory of Forensic Genetics and Molecular Archaeology, KU Leuven, Leuven, Belgium; 2Center for Human Genetics, KU Leuven, Leuven, Belgium; 3Center for Archaeological Sciences, KU Leuven, Leuven, Belgium; 4Laboratoire d´Anthropobiologie, Université de Toulouse, Toulouse, France; 5Department of Archaeology, KU Leuven, Leuven, Belgium
The archaeological site of Sagalassos is located in South-West Turkey, near the present town of Aglasun (Burdur province), in the western part of the Taurus mountain range. The town laid out on terraces at altitudes between 1,450 and 1,600 m; human settlements are attested in that area since the 14th century B.C. Over the centuries, Sagalassos gradually developed into an important regional centre and experienced its most flourishing period under the Roman Imperial rule. The final decline was triggered by a earthquake in 518 A.D. and the plague of 541-542 A.D., which wiped out half of the population. In the 7th century AD the town was finally abandoned.
Human bone and tooth samples from 57 individuals (dated between the 11th and 13th century AD by AMS carbon dating of human bones) belonging to the same low social status population group have been so far genetically analyzed. Extraction of DNA and amplification of the two hypervariable segments (HVS-I and HVS-II) of the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region were successful and reproducible in 28 out the 57 individuals. The sample as a whole is characterized by a typical West-Eurasian mtDNA variation, with the haplogroup H being the most represented (25%). Comparative analyses with more than 4,300 sequences from eurasian populations points to a high genetic affinity with Southeastern Mediterranean. More particularly an affinity is observed at the genealogical level with mtDNA lineages from the Balkan area, more in detail Macedonia, Northern Greece and Bosnia. This might represent a genetic signature of the settlements installed by the Seleucides (330-150 B.P.) from Macedonia in Northern Pisidia. No contribution of Central Asian mtDNA pool has been so far observed.
In conclusion, it appears that recent historical events have contributed to shaping the mitochondrial gene pool of the Sagalassos population. Future efforts will be addressed to investigate more human and animal samples, and to improve classification of the human lineages through the analysis of SNPs in the coding region of mtDNA.
Post from Rum to 24.07.2010 00:07:37
Yea right,
sorry for answering in the feet of istor. I just wanted to say that we are aware of the non scientific analyses of iGenea about antic tribes, in fact they honestly admit it: a) no published papers of theirs, b) no explanations given on their method of meta-analysis of other papers, c) not even explanations of the definitions of terms such as "Antic Macedonians" or "Hellenes" apart from people leaving there from 900BC to 900AD etc. This is not science of course... but to be honest, even if sometimes they try to hide that, they admit it whenever asked, so I can accept that and that their meta-analysis was based on a lets say fuzzy logic mixing several papers and conclusions that are drawn from modern ethnogenesis. Of course all the above have nothing to do with their actual job that is personal DNA analysis, I don't deny the scientific methods they use for each person or their scientific background.
Anyway, istor has right. Ancient Greeks were proud of their race and in some ways they might be racists, but this changed with Alexander the Great and moreover with Christianity: from then on, hellenism was more than anything else a cultural element, not a racial one. We consider Greeks people from so many races especially many Church's fathers for example, our "national" name became Romaioi, i.e. Romans or Rums, and slavic speaking macedonians were also Rums during the Ottoman Empire. We used to be one, then, even speaking different languages, but after modern ethnogenesis some of them felt Greeks, some Bulgars... and most of the second after 1945 gradually created a separate national identity due to Yugoslavia influence. That's not a problem at all for me... As I said so many times, we could be the best friends: the problem begins when they try to change history completely, projecting present to the past and talking about Ancient Macedonians as not only being non Greeks but even as rivals to Ancient Greeks! This is nationalistic propaganda... and has nothing to do with DNA and blood. istor is right, even if DNA and blood would prove slavomacedonians to be 100% slavic and not Ancient Macedonians, they could become Greeks and Macedonians culturally if they chose to do so... the real problem is not DNA or blood... it is nationalistic and racist propaganda...
Post from Yea right... to 23.07.2010 22:07:34
To Histor..
IGENEA has no samples nor any studies regarding "ancient Macedonian" genes. They have been asked for ANY source a million times and they have never given any example, although once or twice they had the audacity of directing to some hundreds of purposefully irrelevant studies. This whole issue is for them just a scam with the purpose to make the gullible Skopians their faithful clients. Mr. Roman as his predecessor Mrs. Pazzos choose to continue this sherade for financial reasons only. You can ask them for ONE study, ONE reference... you will have the same luck everyone before you had. Lame excuses and nothing else...
Post from Rum to 23.07.2010 17:07:43
once again sorry for some mistake I make while writing: at my previous post pls read "there was no Greece" instead of "there was no Greek" and that airplane example was a joke of course. Also about E3b1 is has just started in Africa (one amongst other possibilities) but actually all haplogroups seem to have started there as all of them come from the same DNA Adam.
Well said istor... especially hellenism is above all a cultural quality not a racial one. There are so many ppl Greeks accepted as Greeks even though they were not Greeks in race but in culture.
Post from istor to 23.07.2010 15:07:40
Blood and dna are not related to ethnicity, at least within a race. Alexander had no DNA test to recognize Macedonian soldiers. He did not measure their noses' volume or their penises' length. He simple asked the family they grew up that is the education they had.
Whoever thinks that blood defines ethnicity, is a RACIST like Hitler.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism
Post from Rum to 23.07.2010 08:07:04
Kiril... once again you start talking nonsense...
Please decide: once you say that Greeks are subsaharian in contrast to Antic Macedonians, next you say that Greeks have no E3b1 and this is an Antic Macedonian marker(!). Well as far as I know, the only haplogroup that is considered to have some kind of subsaharian link is that one...
And nobody "conflates" Greek and Macedonian identity... Do you really believe that Greece was so strong to impose her politics all over the world?! What do you think that in lets say 1800 when there was no Greek ppl believed that Alexander the Great was not Greek?!
Kiril, Alexander the Great was Greek even if his haplogroup was O, as istor explained you ethnicity has nothing to do with DNA. Only racists would accept such a view. Even if you do the maths, you may have O haplogroup and millions and millions of ancestors of yours being Greek and that just that only one single forefather before 10.000 being an Indian that took the airplane and came to Greece. I mean that haplogroups don't have anything to do even with autosomnal DNA, but who cares?!
Alexander the Great spread Greek culture and language all over the known world of his time. You choose another language, that's fine. You still have a right to this heritage as Greeks. But you falsify history and continue trying to prove what? That he was slav? That he was... Macedonian?! "I am not an American I am a NewYorker"... Do you understand that what you say does not even make sense?
Post from Kiril to 23.07.2010 06:07:01
Hello Roman,
If you have time, I would be very interested in your opinion on the Greek Government funded study below (item 1). It was carried out in conjunction with a number of other studies in order to find a conclusive genetic link between Ancient Macedonians and Modern Greeks. What makes it very interesting apart from it dismal failure is the flagrant misidentification of modern Greek and Macedonian populations.
Secondly you may find the peer review interesting (item 2) it sums up beautifully and illustrates perfectly the desperate lengths people go to hide facts. Links provided.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2588664/
1. Abstract - Y-chromosomal evidence for a limited Greek contribution to the Pathan population of Pakistan
Three Pakistani populations residing in northern Pakistan, the Burusho, Kalash and Pathan claim descent from
Greek soldiers associated with Alexander’s invasion of southwest Asia. Earlier studies have excluded a substantial Greek genetic input into these populations, but left open the question of a smaller contribution. We have now typed 89 binary polymorphisms and 16 multiallelic, short-tandem-repeat (STR) loci mapping to the male-specific portion of the human Y chromosome in 952 males, including 77 Greeks in order to re-investigate this question. In pairwise comparisons between the Greeks and the three Pakistani populations using genetic distance measures sensitive to recent events, the lowest distances were observed between the Greeks and the Pathans. Clade E3b1 lineages, which were frequent in the Greeks but not in Pakistan, were nevertheless observed in two Pathan individuals, one of whom shared a 16 Y-STR haplotype with the Greeks. The worldwide distribution of a shortened (9 Y-STR) version of this haplotype, determined from database information, was concentrated in Macedonia and Greece, suggesting an origin there. Although based on only a few unrelated descendants this provides strong evidence for a European origin for a small proportion of the Pathan Y chromosomes.
2. Peer Review -Y-chromosomal evidence for a limited Greek contribution to the Pathan population of Pakistan
In the current article on the Pathans, an assumption is made, alluded to
within the title itself, that Alexander the Great was Greek. What the
authors say that is helpful to understanding ancient population movements is that the Pathan population of Pakistan has a tradition of descent from
members of Alexander the Great's army, which appears to be borne out also by the genetic evidence for a strong presence of E3b1 (alpha presumed) - M78 among the Pathan male population. The authors also identify M78 as
originating in the Balkans.
They then proceed to muddy the waters badly by claiming that the the
following haplotype is "Greek":
DYS19=13
389i=13
389ii=30
390=24
391=10
392=11
393=13
438=10
439=12
Anyone who has worked with E3b1 for any length of time will recognize these
immediately as the ordinary modal STR values for the E3b1 subclade (probably E3b1a2, although this still awaits the commercial availability of V13 for proof.)
The authors entered this "Greek"haplotype at YHRD and stated in their
article that 53 individuals in a worldwide population sample of 7897
haplotypes were found that matched it. To quote:
"The contour map [of the distribution of this haplotype] shows a major
concentration around Macedonia and Greece, with a low scattering in other
European countries, Tunisia, West Africa and the Pathans. This gives a
strong indication of a European, possibly Greek, origin of these Pathan Y
chromosomes." Thus in this statement, they again conflate Macedonian and
Greek ancestry. (See above-linked abstract to the article, "HLA genes in
Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks.").
I decided to follow suit and enter the same data at YHRD. I entered the
above haplotype and came up with a list of the populations with matches to
this profile. What struck me immediately was the almost complete ABSENCE of
this haplotype in Greece itself!!!! The only exception was found in Thrace,
Greece, where 4 out of 41 samples showed this profile. Every other profile
was found outside of Greece itself, including 14/149 in Macedonia, 4/43 in
Krusevo, Macedonia (among the Aromun population there,) 8/453 in Stuttgart,
Germany, 5/35 in Sarajevo, 3/52 in Skopje, Macedonia, 2/30 in Tirana,
Albania, etc.
The following regions in Greece had NO presence for this profile in YHRD
(sample size in parenthesis):
Athens (101)
Central Greece (14)
Crete, Greece (8)
Epirus, Greece (14)
Macedonia, Greece (28) !!!!!!
Peloponnes, Greece (18)
Thessaly, Greece (15)
198 samples above, plus 37 out of 41 samples in Thrace, for a total of 235
samples found in Greece had NO appearance of this haplotype whatsoever. The
E3b1 modal appeared in just 4 out of 235 samples within the borders of
Greece itself and those in a region that was originally part of Thracia.
How can anyone say credibly that this group is representative of a displaced
Greek population? At the very least it is Macedonian and considering the
known composition of Alexander's army, may have been Thracian instead.
The problem, obviously, is with the misidentification of Alexander as a
Greek rather than a Macedonian by these researchers. If they had stated
that the Pathan population of Pakistan had been descended from Macedonians
who accompanied Alexander, I believe that they would have hit the mark.
One other paragraph is worth noting:
"This haplotype was not observed in any other E3b1-derived Pakistani Y
chromosome but was highly specific for the Balkans -- the highest frequency
being in Macedonia."
I was speechless. The right conclusion but the wrong description.
Steven Bird, DMA
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2006-10/1161432323
Post from istor to 22.07.2010 15:07:16
Dear Kiril,
blood and dna are NOT related to ethnicity, at least within a race. If I adopt your children I 'll make them proud Macedonians like me, right?
Believe me, Dardanians assimilated by Slavs are not less Serbian, Bulgarian or SlavoSkopian than Serbians, Bulgarians or SlavoSkopians of Slavic origin.
Or, where are Illyrians, Thracians, Hettites, Pelasgians, ..... ???
Post from Rum to 22.07.2010 14:07:54
Dear Kiril,
once again you have to choose, either we talk seriously or we make fun. You can't call someone "ethiopeanGreek" and then say oh that was just a joke we all laughed apart from you (of course istor did not laugh he was the offended one...). In case that was an answer to "slavomacedonians" I really did not understand that, I thought you were proud of your slavic heritage as much as the macedonian one. In fact Greece and FYROM agreed to use the name Republic of Slavomacedonia in 1992 but due to stupid greek policy that was cancelled.
There is a problem you should admit: "Rum, what you do not understand is that we are as much Macedonian as you boys are Hellene and more importantly, no one can tell me that I am not Macedonian, all because I do not speak and think modern Greek?". This is something you don't get: who says so? I accept that you are also partly macedonians and I would be the last to deny you the right even to abandon your slavic heritage and adopt a fully macedonian one. The problem is not that: The problem is that the macedonian identity you promote is unhistorical and artificial, i.e. you try to prove that ancient Macedonians were not Greeks, that there was always a rivalry amongst Greeks and ancient Macedonians etc. due to your new national identity. Thus you bypass an enormous historical period (from antiquity to slavic invasions) and ignore the fact that even if ancient Macedonians were not Greek (that were) they were the same as Greeks. Don't you feel strange by adopting that propaganda? What will you learn to your children that Alexander the Great was not Greek and he was the biggest enemy of Greeks?! Or that you also have a Greek ancenstry line being a macedonian?
About the language: some of my ancestors (1 in 4) were turkish speaking, that did not make them less Greek. They felt Greeks, Rums actually and I can accept someone feeling Greek while having adopted another language. But this is not the case with your propaganda: the problem is that you distort history... and I don't like that...
As I wrote in other posts of mine here, we used to be the same people. Nationalism separated us, language was not a really important factor during the Ottoman era, religion was. We were all Rum Orthodox, being a Greek or modern macedonian is a matter of coincidence to a large degree. This is the truth, but your propaganda cannot accept it... You talk about Greeks as if they were your worst enemies since antiquity and this is crazy. It is such a pity that our two people (the same actually) are so hostile nowadays...
Post from Kiril to 22.07.2010 06:07:02
Hello Rum, Istor & Roman,
Boys, I think you take things too seriously, relax, can you not tell that I and others joke, have laughs, ha ha, you know? I know we laugh at your expense but you only bring it upon yourselves, your arguments are usually offensive, arrogant yet very naïve with a hint of superiority to boot. Just know that we too are capable of thought and be assured I understand very clearly all sides of this issue and can honestly say that I have researched both sides of the story and believe me, I truly understand. I even married one of your beautiful country women and can happily and proudly say that my children are Macedonian-Greeks or to make you happy Greek-Macedonians.
Rum, what you do not understand is that we are as much Macedonian as you boys are Hellene and more importantly, no one can tell me that I am not Macedonian, all because I do not speak and think modern Greek? Where is the logic in that?? Do you know they can even teach monkeys to understand human language? So I ask you, if they taught a monkey Greek, would that make the monkey Greek or more Macedonian than me??? See, I joke again, please laugh and try eating banana's I hear they are very cheap in Athens and also very good for the nervous system!
Istor, all reason has sadly been lost in this deluded name debate and your pathetic type of propaganda is not worthy of debate and would be a waste of time. So, frankly I could think of nothing more appalling than communicating with you, besides that I usually have better things to do with my time than to come up with silly derogatory names like "EthiopAthenians" or "SlavoSkopians".
Finally and more to the point, our understanding of genetics and its role in all aspects of our earth's history is in its infancy. The application of this science in our understanding of human history will be as critical as the WORDS of Herodotus and even more so than the PERCEPTIONS of historians and archaeologists. Because after all words and perceptions are open to interpretation and thus debatable, whereas the blood in our veins is not.
Roman, sorry for this nonsensical war of words, it must amuse anyone not directly impacted.
Post from istor to 21.07.2010 23:07:12
Dear Kiril,
see notes in http://www.stoa.org/sol-entries/delta/69
Why don't you google it?
Anyway, this is not a place for arguing about Macedonians' doubtless Greekness. Meet me here: http://www.topix.com/forum/world/macedonia
Post from Rum to 21.07.2010 15:07:33
Kiril,
I am sorry about the harsh language (i.e the word "stupidity" I used) but sometimes you drive me crazy.
About the 30% Antic Macedonian DNA in Slavomacedonians and 5% in Greeks: you don't get it... right? Even if we accept those percentages (we still discuss here what Antic Macedonian means but lets accept it as work hypothesis again) that means that there are 2.000.000*30%=600.000 Antic Macedonians amongst modern slavomacedonians and another 12.000.000*5%=600.000 Antic Macedonians in Greece. If we count immigrants also... Greeks ancient Macedonians are far more than slavomacedonians.
Kiril... do you really believe what you write?
Post from Kiril to 21.07.2010 07:07:43
Hi Rum & Istor,
Firstly, Rum can you please tell me that story again about how Antic Macedonians had sex with invading Slavs, creating little slavomacdonians and how this somehow explains the very high percentage (30%) of Antic Macedonian markers in the Republic of Macedonia.
And using that logic I would assume that for some reason Antic Macedonians didn\'t have very much sex with the Hellenes as their legacy only amounts to 5% in Greece. Now you\'ve got me wondering why they didn\'t copulate more often, my guess is the Hellenes weren\'t as attractive as those Slav babes.
Now Istor, using you standards and logic I would have to refer to you as an EthiopAthenian (SORRY, IF I HAVE OFFENDED ANY ETHIOPIANS) and I am sorry buddy your geography is a bit screwed. If you would bother to check an original map of the time, \"Tabula Peutingeriana\" you will see that Ancient Macedonia was a bit bigger than your description above. And for the life of me I cannot find Dardania, Peonia and interestingly no Greece, but I'm sure you will explian this little anomaly.
Post from istor to 20.07.2010 23:07:23
Dear Roman
You, in igenea, make a mistake.
Skopje or Kumanovo or Veles have never been in that historic Macedonian land. Ancient Macedonians lived to the south of Ohrid-Strumica line. This means that ONLY 15% of ancient Macedonian land is in FYROM. The rest or FYROM was inhabited by Dardanians, Peonians, other Illyrians, maybe Thracians and, after 6c AD, by Slavs. In fact, Skopje was capital of Dardania and then of Kossovo, while Veles was capital of Peonia.
Thanks for polite discussion.
Post from Rum to 20.07.2010 22:07:24
Dear Roman,
ancient Macedonia was only the modern Greek part. After the Roman era Paionia also was named Macedonia and the regions that were named Macedonia changed time after time. Just for your knowledge...
Now about that "subsaharian" stupidity. First of all slavomacedonians imply that Greeks have nothing to do with ancient Greeks due that E1b1b1. Someone should inform them that E1b1b1 came in Balkans long before classic era and for sure ancient Greeks had E1b1b1 also. In fact, through E1b1b1 genetists try to find ancient Greek (but also Roman immigrations) to Asia and Europe... thus either you are slav (so no E1b1b1) or you are ancient Macedonian / Greek and therefor you have E1b1b1 also in your nation's (I hate that word) genetic pool. Slavomacedonians should choose...
I really feel pity for those teenagers in FYROM with all that propaganda... Bulgarians laugh with you, Greek the same, iGenea and other try to be polite... what are you trying to prove? Either you are close related to ancient Macedonians and therefor Greeks or you are slavs (genetically I mean) and therefor you are totally different from Greeks and ancient Macedonians. Ok, you can say you are a mixture (most probably) but then you are a Greek / slavic mixture, so why so hatred toward Greeks?
Even if ancient Macedonians were not Greek (work hypothesis) they were not slavs for sure. For sure they were greekified later on (slavs came here 1000 years after ancient Macedonians) so once again you are a mixture of Greeks and Slavs culturally...
You just make the same mistake as Greeks made in 19th century ignoring their later history and adopting the romantic "ancient Greek" identity, or Turks made in 20th century adopting the Turan identity as sole factor of their identity...
Post from iGENEA to 20.07.2010 21:07:29
We refer to the ancient tribe called Macedonians which are believed to have lived north of the ancient Greeks in the historical region Macedonia which is not only modern Repulic Macedonia but also a big part of northern Greece.
Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from istor to 20.07.2010 16:07:08
Dear Roman,
This will probably be my last question for you. I respect your time and I won't bother you any more.
When you say "ancient Macedonians" do you refer to ancient inhabitants of modern FYROM or what?
Post from iGENEA to 20.07.2010 08:07:41
Dear Istor,
Edit: I did a little research on the "sub-saharan origin" topic.
The study mentioned above is 10 years old and the usage of ethnic terms is questionable. Furthemore it does not refer to Y-DNA and mtDNA which is the DNA that can be traced back far more exactly. If we look at the haplogroup statistics we cant see a big difference between Greece and Macedonia.
Especially Haplogroup E1b1b1, that came from Africa in more "recent" times (8.500 years ago) is present in both nations at almost the same level (and is also present everywhere else on the balkans).
The only thing we do is tell people in which ancient tribe their ancestors in direct male or female lineage lived.
We have already removed the statistics, because the get outdated. I know this discussion is still going on, but we are just a private company that wants to provide the best service for our costumers, we will not engage in any political discussion.
We use the term "hellenic" for ancient greeks and "Macedonian" for ancient Macedonian.
Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from istor to 19.07.2010 14:07:59
Dear Roman,
SlavoSkopians use your study conclusions to humiliate Greeks for our dna. Esp that "sub-Saharan origin of Greeks"
Please, do something about that. I would like to suggest to stop using ethnic terms for dna determination. Not only you, but all geneticists. Or make it clear in the front page of igenea: " Greek dna is the common denominator of the dnas of peoples who live in Greece at a given time" or something. There is no Greek dna, but there is Greek language.
If you stop using the name "Macedonia" for "the Former Yugoslav Rep of Macedonia " as the UN name of the country is, it would be appreciated. Macedonians of Alexander are not ethnically related to "Macedonians" of Skopje.
I am sure that chinese boy that came in Macedonia (Greece) 2000 years ago, went in China from ... Greece lets say 3000 years earlier!
:)
Post from iGENEA to 18.07.2010 18:07:52
Dear Darko,
i am sorry that was misleading. There were ancient Greeks, we just call them Hellenes, to make clear that we talk about the ancient tribe, not about modern greek nation.
Greeks of today descend from ancient greeks, but only partially (like almost every other modern nation only partially descend from the ancient tribe they refer to).
Dear Istor,
Ethnicity is not determined by DNA, but we can tell in which tribe the ancestors of a person lived at a certain time.
To stay with your example:
You adopt a boy from China for example and most of the male descendants of this boy live in Macedonia for the next 2.000 years. Then, 2.000 years in the future, we probably could tell the male descendants by a DNA-test that their pure male lineage once has been chinese but then moved to Macedonia and therefore became Macedonian or at least lived among this nation.
One thing is very important: There is not only one genetic profile for one tribe, there are millions of lineages, and every lineage has its own story.
That also means, that two lineages can be from the same tribe but have a totally different DNA-profil - because they came from different populations before they lived in the same tribe.
Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from istor to 17.07.2010 18:07:52
No. Greeks have been always around since the times of Deukalion cataclysm as Aristotle wrote in Meteorologica. http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.1.i.html
Igenea, or any dna study, CANNOT determine ethnicity of peoples because ethnicity is not related to dna. Ethnicity is a matter of education: if I adopt your children I 'll make them proud Macedonians like me.
Post from Darko to 17.07.2010 06:07:58
Dear Roman,
As you've saiid in the post above - iGENEA doesn't refer to "Greeks" - but to ancient tribes!
Is it that because there were no ancient "Greek" tribe to refer to in the past?
Post from istor to 13.07.2010 19:07:35
As Loring Danforth wrote " I belong to an ethnic group if I want it and they accept me"
Be sure that Alexander had no DNA test to recognize Macedonians. He simply asked for their parents, ie the family they grew up in and they were educated by.
Ethnicity is a matter of education, ( in house or neighborhood or school) and language is its main objective indicator.
We, modern Greeks, are related to ancient ones with Language and then Minds' bonds. In our long history we have assimilated many populations who lived amongst us mainly peacefully due to the attractiveness of our Civilization: Pelasgians, Romans, Illyrians, Thracians, Slavs, Normands, Celts, ...
Post from iGENEA to 13.07.2010 12:07:46
Hello Basil,
they study you mentioned is not about Y-DNA or mtDNA therefore there is no connection to the tests we offer an we do not consider this in our analysis.
Hello Darko,
i know the study you mentioned, it is one of several studies we analysed.
We do not refer to "Greeks" but to ancient tribes that existed between 900 BC and 900 AD. But these terms are not geographical but ethnic in that way, that the ancestors lived among that sepcial tribe. Of course the tribe of ones ancestors can change, but the exact movement is hard to reveal.
Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
info@igenea.com
www.igenea.com
Post from Darko to 12.07.2010 19:07:31
Yes but iGENEA refers only to Greek as 'people':
PEOPLE (definition): as a countable noun, a group of humans, either with unspecified traits, or specific characteristics (e.g. the people of Spain or the people of the Plains).
If the Greeks are not related ethnically nor with specific traits (race, religion, cultural heritage, language etc.), then on which bases these "inhabitants of Greece" are even taken in consideration by iGENEA ?
Post from istor to 12.07.2010 16:07:23
Blood and dna are not related to ethnicity, at least within a race. If I adopt any SlavoSkopian children, I 'll make them proud Macedonians like me, despite their "Macedonian" blood.
The ethnic terms like "Greek", "Turkish" .... are used by IGENEA geographically, that is the term "Greek" means "the inhabitant of Greece"
Post from Basil to 12.07.2010 02:07:29
Dear iGENEA
I would lik to know (if it's posible) - did your institute took in consideration also this:
"The reason why Greeks did not show a close relatedness with all the other Mediterraneans analyzed was their genetic relationship with sub-Saharan ethnic groups now residing in Ethiopia, Sudan and West Africa (Burkina-Fasso)."
('Tissue Antigens' 2001, p.125)
If not, in what proportion will this diferent genealogic studies on sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) origin of the Greeks influence the last findings you've published some time ago?
Post from Darko to 12.07.2010 02:07:09
Here's another study on the genetic Differences between Macedonians and Greeks!
The research published by the Science Magazine of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), shows a drastic difference in the Y chromosome genetic composition between the Greeks and Macedonians, as Figure 3. clearly demonstrates:
Pdf:
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/Y_Hromosomes.pdf
Source: American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS)
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/sci;290/5494/1155?maxtoshow=&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=The+Genetic+Legacy+of+Paleolithic+Homo+sapiens+sapiens+in+Extant+Europeans%3A+A+Y+Chromosome+Perspective&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT
Does iGENEA takes in consideration this genetic analysis too?
Post from Basil to 11.07.2010 18:07:28
Does iGENEA has anything to comment on this recent genealogic study:
"Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups.
Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310.
Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses.
Source: Departamento de Inmunologia y Biologia Molecular, Universidad Complutense Madrid
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1034/j.1399-0039.2001.057002118.x
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506?dopt=Citation